From: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes) Newsgroups: rec.music.folk Subject: Re: "I know where they are" Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 09:24:57 GMT In article <19970505135600.JAA03637@ladder01.news.aol.com>, >slhinton17@aol.com (SLHinton17) writes: >> It seems to >>me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying >>on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and >>'60's. What on earth made him think that I don't know . . Most of the versions quoted by old soldiers have the privates up to their >necks in mud but follow it with a verse which says that the "old >battalion" is hanging on the wire. This is as it's given in Brophy and > Partridge: Songs and Slang of the British Soldier (1930) And Roy Palmer's investigations suggest that early in the war the song existed without the last verse, which was added after the Somme. Regards George ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: szdc2!super.pdfpo.com!ix.netcom.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!i-cubed.demon.co.uk!i-cubed.co.uk!news From: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes) Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk Subject: Re: another song for Anzac Day Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 09:21:48 GMT Organization: i-cubed Limited, Cambridge Message-ID: <5kph9f$89t@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk> References: <33645796.8030598@snews2.pdfpo.com> <336919b3.18497563@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5k90a5$m1n@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> <337294e2.7847278@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5klvl2$ds1@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> Reply-To: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: postmanpat.i-cubed.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: i-cubed.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Lines: 32 Xref: szdc2 rec.music.folk:35819 uk.music.folk:7124 X-Agent-Group: rec.music.folk jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J.J.Farrell) wrote: >In article <337294e2.7847278@snews2.pdfpo.com>, >Abby Sale wrote: >> On 1 May 1997 03:48:37 +0100, jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J.J.Farrell) wrote: >> >>> I saw them, I saw them, dangling on the old barbed wire, >> >>"I'll Tell You Where They Are" is about the battle of the Somme? I never >>realized. Sure makes sense that it would be. Thanx. >I don't know that it was about the Somme It wasn't; it predates the Somme, but without the last verse. This according to Roy Palmer (see my post in another thread once I get it together!!) >but the sight of >dead and dying soldiers hanging on barbed wire for days or weeks at >a time was commonplace. Indeed, but the most common versions have this verse as 'the regiment' (or similar) hanging on the old barbed wire; it's that scale which, I suggest, characterises it as being of the Somme or later? Regards G. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Newsgroups: uk.music.folk,rec.music.folk Date: Tue, 06 May 97 17:33:26 From: Eric Berge Subject: Re: "I know where they are" Lines: 69 X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage References: <33645796.8030598@snews2.pdfpo.com> <33697210.13116236@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5k3htu$qoe@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> <336919b3.18497563@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5k90a5$m1n@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> <5kc8hh$q8k@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk> <337025c0.21403456@snews2.pdfpo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.37.242.242 Path: szdc2!super.pdfpo.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news2.ibm.net!129.37.242.242 Xref: szdc2 uk.music.folk:7120 rec.music.folk:35795 X-Agent-Group: rec.music.folk In Article<337025c0.21403456@snews2.pdfpo.com>, writes: > Lomax, in _Amer Bal & F S_ has an inverted one: > He got it from _Songs My Mother Never Taught Me_, 1929 > > "If You Want to Know Where the Privates Are" > > If you want to know where the privates are > Up to their ears in mud and slime. > > ...the sergeants > ...the captains > .the officers > ...the generals I actually have a copy of _Songs MMNTM_ (JJNIles and Douglas Moore, Illustrated by A.A.Walgren, 1929); Lomax must have gotten his version from more sources than this (...Runs over to bookcase and hauls out Lomax... Nope, he doesn't say). SMMNTM only has verses for Privates/Generals/Captains/Sergeants, in that order, although the words correspond exactly to those Abby listed. Oddly enough, the accompanying Walgren illustrations for the song are for the privates and the missing verse about officers, the latter showing them swilling rum in a dugout. The illustrations are very amusing - if anyone wants, I can scan and post them as binaries, or email them privately. The note for the song reads as follows (partially duplicated in Lomax): "There is a lot more truth in this song than one is likely to suspect, official reports of Army Operations to the contrary notwithstanding. The version we have here was passed on to us by Orian Hoskinson, originally of the Field Service and later, Lieut. Hoskinson, A.S.U.S.A., arriving, however, by the Aviation Cadet route. " The last song in the book is also a good one, and might be a relative of "If you want to know...", so I'll post it: WHAT DO THE COLONELS AND THE GENERALS DO (A song that explains itself - and how!) Colonel said that Kaiser William surely was a pest, Dirty little job for Jesus. Said I ought to lay the Kaiser's hips to rest, Dirty little job for Jesus, Oh, what do the Generals and the Colonels do... I'll tell you, I'll tell you Figger out just how the privates ought to do The dirty little jobs for Jesus. Now when I run away they said I was afraid to die, Doin' dirty little jobs for Jesus. I said the only reason why I run was 'cause I couldn't fly, Doin' dirty little jobs for Jesus. Oh, what etc... Fifty thousand privates died for democracy, Dirty little job for Jesus. Twenty major generals got the D.S.C., Another dirtly little job for Jesus. Oh, what etc... Eric Berge edberge@ibm.net ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: szdc2!super.pdfpo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!i-cubed.demon.co.uk!i-cubed.co.uk!news From: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes) Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk Subject: Re: "I know where they are" Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 10:50:38 GMT Organization: i-cubed Limited, Cambridge Message-ID: <5kn23u$cf@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk> References: <33645796.8030598@snews2.pdfpo.com> <33697210.13116236@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5k3htu$qoe@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> <336919b3.18497563@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5k90a5$m1n@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> <5kc8hh$q8k@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk> <337025c0.21403456@snews2.pdfpo.com> Reply-To: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: postmanpat.i-cubed.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: i-cubed.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Lines: 26 Xref: szdc2 rec.music.folk:35752 uk.music.folk:7107 X-Agent-Group: rec.music.folk abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) wrote: >It occurs to me that there is no version of this in DT or other online >songbases I've tried. Also (to my surprise) I don't have it on record. >And it _is_ an important song. Usually just treated as a joke. >Since George seems quite familiar with it, I suggest he be "assigned" to >putting together either a "legitamate" (ie, actually collected in the >field) version or else a usable collated but unbowdlerized version. Sorry >about suggesting this in the embarassing public, George, but that's life. Actually I have a version as published by Roy Palmer (who normally seeks de-sanitised versions); one of my kids used it in a school project on that period (unfortunately between the two of them they managed three projects drawing on song material from that period, so it's not absolutely straight forward . . .) Regards G, ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: szdc!super.pdfpo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!oleane!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!hex.dsbc.icl.co.uk!dsbc.icl.co.uk!not-for-mail From: jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J.J.Farrell) Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk Subject: Re: another song for Anzac Day Date: 6 May 1997 01:57:06 +0100 Organization: Fujitsu, Bracknell, UK Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5klvl2$ds1@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> References: <33645796.8030598@snews2.pdfpo.com> <336919b3.18497563@snews2.pdfpo.com> <5k90a5$m1n@eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk> <337294e2.7847278@snews2.pdfpo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.dsbc.icl.co.uk Xref: szdc rec.music.folk:35714 uk.music.folk:7095 X-Agent-Group: rec.music.folk In article <337294e2.7847278@snews2.pdfpo.com>, Abby Sale wrote: >On 1 May 1997 03:48:37 +0100, jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J.J.Farrell) wrote: > >> I saw them, I saw them, dangling on the old barbed wire, > >"I'll Tell You Where They Are" is about the battle of the Somme? I never >realized. Sure makes sense that it would be. Thanx. I don't know that it was about the Somme - I was thinking of a song reference to keep the thread vaguely relevant to the groups, and that one seemed appropriate to what I'd said. Barbed wire was used heavily throughout the Western Front, and I would guess along all the others as well. The start of the battle of the Somme might have been one of the biggest instances, but the sight of dead and dying soldiers hanging on barbed wire for days or weeks at a time was commonplace. -- My opinions; I do not speak for my employer. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: szdc!super.pdfpo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: jmoul81075@aol.com (JMoul81075) Newsgroups: rec.music.folk Subject: Re: "I know where they are" Date: 5 May 1997 22:04:58 GMT Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Lines: 19 Message-ID: <19970505220400.SAA06558@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <19970505135600.JAA03637@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader Xref: szdc rec.music.folk:35706 X-Agent-Group: rec.music.folk In article <19970505135600.JAA03637@ladder01.news.aol.com>, slhinton17@aol.com (SLHinton17) writes: > It seems to >me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying >on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and >'60's. Most of the versions quoted by old soldiers have the privates up to their necks in mud but follow it with a verse which says that the "old battalion" is hanging on the wire. This is as it's given in Brophy and Partridge: Songs and Slang of the British Soldier (1930) John Moulden Singer, Percussionist, Writer, Lecturer, Researcher, Publisher, Song Hunter Ulstersongs Mail Order (Books and Cassettes) http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: szdc!super.pdfpo.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: slhinton17@aol.com (SLHinton17) Newsgroups: rec.music.folk Subject: Re: "I know where they are" Date: 5 May 1997 13:57:41 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <19970505135600.JAA03637@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <862758128.948.0@fylde.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Xref: szdc rec.music.folk:35683 X-Agent-Group: rec.music.folk I've heard this song more like this: If you want to know where the GENERALS were, I'll tell you where they were. I'll tell you where they were. I'll tell you where they were. If you want to know where the GENERALS were, I'll tell you where they were. They were back in gay Paree. (How do you know?) I saw them! I saw them! Back in gay Paree I saw them. Back in gay Paree. COLONELS -- 'way behind the lines. MAJORS -- Flirting with the mademoiselles. CAPTAINS--down in the deep dugout. LIEUTENANTS -- riding the Sergeant's ass. SERGEANTS -- drinking the privates' beer. PRIVATES -- up to their necks in mud. ****************************** You'll find a slioghtly different version in Wanda Willson Whitman: SONGS THAT CHANGED THE WORLD. (NY: Crown Publishers, Inc., 1969.) It seems to me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and '60's. Sam Hinton La Jolla, CA -------