From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:33
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From: Chris Ryall <chris@cavendish.demon.co.uk>Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:54:51 +0100
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I learned this version at the Darlington 
(Golden Cock) folk workshop/singaround in 1970

If you want to see our Seargent  ("our" pronounced ow-er)
I know where he is, 
I know where he is,
If you want to see our Seargent
I know where he is.

He is lying on the canteen floor
I've seen him, I've seen him
He is lying on the canteen floor
I've seen him, I've seen him
Lying on the canteen floor

Our Major - safe in his deep duggout <or snug, or sitting>Our Quartermaster - boozing on the Private's rum

Our General - miles and miles behind the Line

If you want to see our Privates
I know where they are,
I know where they are,
If you want to see our Privates
I know where they are.

They are hanging on the front line wire
I've seen them, I've seen them
They are hanging on the front line wire
I've seen them, I've seen them
Hanging on the front line wire <silence>>>To my mind the most powerful of the songs from WW1
Agreed.
-- 
Chris Ryall <snip # on reply>From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:36
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From: tom@fylde.demon.co.uk (tom morgan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:02:06 GMT
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abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) wrote:



>It occurs to me that there is no version of this in DT or other online
>songbases I've tried.  Also (to my surprise) I don't have it on record.
>And it _is_ an important song.  Usually just treated as a joke.


You have somewhat sanitized versions.  At the time the song was asung
a little more brutally, with the first line:

If you want the bloody general - etc

If you want the bloody colonel - etc

If you want the bloody major - etc

If you want the bloody quarter-bloke - etc

If you want the bloody sergeant - etc

Ending up with:

If you want the old battalion, we know where they are - etc.

Also worth noting:

Outside a lunatic asylum one day,
A gunner was beaking up stones.
Out came a lunatic to pass the time of day,
"Mornin', Gunner Jones.
How much a week do you get for doing that?"
"Seven bob," he replied.
And the lunatic stopped, as his bloody jaw dropped
And he threw back his head and cried......

"Come inside, you silly bugger, come inside.
I thought you had more sense,
Working for the army? take my tip -
Act a bit barmy and become a lunatic.
You get your three meals reg'lar.
And two new suits beside,
What? Seven bob a week?
With a wife and kids to keep?
Come inside you silly bugger, come inside."




From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:38
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From: slhinton17@aol.com (SLHinton17)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: 5 May 1997 13:57:41 GMT
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I've heard this song more like this:

If you want to know where the GENERALS were,
   I'll tell you where they were.
   I'll tell you where they were.
   I'll tell you where they were.
If you want to know where the GENERALS were,
   I'll tell you where they were.
      They were back in gay Paree. (How do you know?)
    I saw them! I saw them!
Back in gay Paree I saw them. 
Back in gay Paree.

COLONELS -- 'way behind the lines.

MAJORS -- Flirting with the mademoiselles.

CAPTAINS--down in the deep dugout.

LIEUTENANTS -- riding the Sergeant's ass.

SERGEANTS -- drinking the privates' beer.

PRIVATES -- up to their necks in mud.
******************************
You'll find a slioghtly different version in Wanda Willson Whitman:  SONGS
THAT CHANGED THE WORLD. (NY: Crown Publishers, Inc., 1969.)  It seems to
me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying
on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and
'60's.


Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA 


From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:41
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From: jmoul81075@aol.com (JMoul81075)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: 5 May 1997 22:04:58 GMT
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In article <19970505135600.JAA03637@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
slhinton17@aol.com (SLHinton17) writes:

>  It seems to
>me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying
>on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and
>'60's.

Most of the versions quoted by old soldiers have the privates up to their
necks in mud but follow it with a verse which says that the "old
battalion" is hanging on the wire. This is as it's given in Brophy and
Partridge: Songs and Slang of the British Soldier (1930)

John Moulden
Singer, Percussionist, Writer, Lecturer,
Researcher, Publisher, Song Hunter
Ulstersongs Mail Order (Books and Cassettes)
http://members.aol.com/jmoul81075/ulstsong.htm


From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:43
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From: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 10:50:38 GMT
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abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) wrote:



>It occurs to me that there is no version of this in DT or other online
>songbases I've tried.  Also (to my surprise) I don't have it on record.
>And it _is_ an important song.  Usually just treated as a joke.

>Since George seems quite familiar with it, I suggest he be "assigned"  to
>putting together either a "legitamate" (ie, actually collected in the
>field) version or else a usable collated but unbowdlerized version. Sorry
>about suggesting this in the embarassing public, George, but that's life.

Actually I have a version as published by Roy Palmer (who
normally seeks de-sanitised versions); one of my kids used it in
a school project on that period (unfortunately between the two
of them they managed three projects drawing on song material
from that period, so it's not absolutely straight forward . . .)

Regards

G,





From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:46
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From: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 09:24:57 GMT
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jmoul81075@aol.com (JMoul81075) wrote:

>In article <19970505135600.JAA03637@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>slhinton17@aol.com (SLHinton17) writes:

>>  It seems to
>>me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying
>>on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and
>>'60's.

What on earth made him think that I don't know . . 

>Most of the versions quoted by old soldiers have the privates up to their
>necks in mud but follow it with a verse which says that the "old
>battalion" is hanging on the wire. This is as it's given in Brophy and
>Partridge: Songs and Slang of the British Soldier (1930)

And Roy Palmer's investigations suggest that early in the war
the song existed without the last verse, which was added after
the Somme.

Regards

George




From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:48
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From: abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 11:24:25 GMT
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On Sun, 04 May 1997 22:02:06 GMT, tom@fylde.demon.co.uk (tom morgan)
wrote:

>
>You have somewhat sanitized versions.  At the time the song was asung
>a little more brutally, with the first line:
>
Exactly my own dissatisfaction with them.

Good start.


-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abbysale@orlinter.com  (That's in Orlando)

From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:51
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From: atm@bae.npl.co.uk (Tom May)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: 7 May 1997 18:47:17 GMT
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In article <5kn23u$cf@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>, George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk 
says...

>abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) wrote:



>>It occurs to me that there is no version of this in DT or other online
>>songbases I've tried.  Also (to my surprise) I don't have it on record.
>>And it _is_ an important song.  Usually just treated as a joke.

>>Since George seems quite familiar with it, I suggest he be "assigned"  
to
>>putting together either a "legitamate" (ie, actually collected in the
>>field) version or else a usable collated but unbowdlerized version. 

Sorry
>>about suggesting this in the embarassing public, George, but that's 
life.

>Actually I have a version as published by Roy Palmer (who
>normally seeks de-sanitised versions); one of my kids used it in
>a school project on that period (unfortunately between the two
>of them they managed three projects drawing on song material
>from that period, so it's not absolutely straight forward . . .)

>Regards

>G,



I'm sorry, I seem to have come in on the tail end of this thread, but if 
you are talking about the song also known as "Hanging on the Old Barbed 
Wire", I have a number of the verses (from various sources)which probably 
were never all sung together (there are too many for comfort).
I can supply these if required.

Best Wishes

Tom 






From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:54
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From: George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George Hawes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk,uk.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 18:37:59 GMT
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abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale) wrote:



>It occurs to me that there is no version of this in DT or other online
>songbases I've tried.  Also (to my surprise) I don't have it on record.
>And it _is_ an important song.  Usually just treated as a joke.

>Since George seems quite familiar with it, I suggest he be "assigned"  to
>putting together either a "legitamate" 

It seems the copy I have of 'Hanging on the old barbed wire' has
a number of the middle verses snipped from it. Given that a
fairly full version appears earlier in the thread, can I be
excused from Abby's onerous task? (i.e. will someone please send
the version from the thread on to DT?)

As I mentioned before, my source is:

What a Lovely War - British Soldiers Songs from the Boer War to
the present day 
Roy Palmer; pub. Michael Joseph, 1990 
(sorry I don't have the ISBN)

The following information re: 'Barbed wire' from that source may
be of interest:

J B Priestly, having dismissed the Music Hall song 'Your King
and Country‘ as "Drivel" observed that 'In the trenches the
troops would sing a wider range of songs, including the marching
songs, nonsense songs and other popular songs of the time. The
patriotic songs seem to be unknown.' 

He also commented on 'Barbed wire' "I cannot listen to it
unmoved"   #1 

This song was also incorporated into a long poem, In
Parenthesis, by David Jones. While I've found references to this
poem in two sources I've yet to locate the poem itself (David
Jones being a sufficiently common name to make library searching

rather tedious!!)

Returning to Priestly, he considered there to be three classes
of soldiers‘ songs during the Great War
 * bawdy
 * lugubrious and homesick, without patriotic sentiment of any
kind
 * sharply concerned with military life from the view-point of
the disillusioned private soldier 

and he believed 'Barbed wire‘ to be the best example of the
third type.

Priestly believed the songs would not survive beyond the end of
the war. Palmer quotes another statment of this view; In the
words of Rifleman Bill Teake, "These ‘ere songs 
are no good in England. They ‘ave too much guts in them." #2

      #1     From Margin Released, 1962.
      #2     From Soldier Songs: MacGill (no date given)

Regards

George



(ie, actually collected in the
>field) version or else a usable collated but unbowdlerized version. Sorry
>about suggesting this in the embarassing public, George, but that's life.

>Dolph, in _Sound Off_ admits his is a very bowdlerized version:

>       "I'll Tell You Where They Were."

>       If you want to know where the generals were,
>       I'll tell you where they were,
>       Yes, I'll tell you where they were,
>       Oh, I'll tell you where they were,
>       If you want to know where the generals were,
>       I'll tell you where they were,
>       Back in gay Paree!
>       (Spoken) How do you know?
>       I saw them! I saw them!
>       Back in gay Paree!
>       I saw them,
>       Back in gay Paree!

>       If you want to know where the colonels were,
>       Way behind the lines.

>       ...the majors
>       Playing with the mademoiselles.

>       ...the captains
>       Down in the deep dugout.

>       ...the sergeants
>       Drinking up the privates' rum.

>       ...the privates
>       Up to their necks in mud!


>Lomax, in _Amer Bal & F S_ has an inverted one:
>He got it from _Songs My Mother Never Taught Me_, 1929

>       "If You Want to Know Where the Privates Are"

>       If you want to know where the privates are
>       I'll tell you where they are,
>       I'll tell you where they are,
>       Yes, I'll tell you where they are.
>       If you want to know where the privates are--
>       I'll tell you where they are,
>       Up to their ears in mud.
>       I saw them, I saw them--
>       Up to their ears in mud and slime.
>       If you want to know where the privates are,
>       I'll tell you where they are--
>       Up to their ears in mud.
>       
>       ...the sergeants
>       Clipping the old barbed wire.

>       ...the captains
>       Drinking the privates' rum.

>       .the officers
>       Down in theie deep dug-out.

>       ...the generals
>       Back in gay Paree.


>On Fri, 02 May 1997 08:32:43 GMT, George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George
>Hawes) wrote:

>>jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J.J.Farrell) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <336919b3.18497563@snews2.pdfpo.com>,
>>>Abby Sale <abbysale@orlinter.com>wrote:
>>>>On 29 Apr 1997 02:12:30 +0100, jjf@dsbc.icl.co.uk (J.J.Farrell) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>      If you want to see the Privates, I know where they are,
>>>      I know where they are, I know where they are,
>>>      If you want to see the Privates, I know where they are,
>>>      They're dangling on the old barbed wire.
>>
>>>      I saw them, I saw them, dangling on the old barbed wire,
>>>      I saw them, dangling on the old barbed wire.
>>
>>Just as there's a vast number of earlier verses to the above
>>(too many to sing at one sitting), there are interesting
>>variants on this last one; the two which spring to mind are
>>
>>    If you want to find the regiment . . .
>>and
>>   If you want to find your husband . . .
>>
>>But I've always known it as 'find' rather than 'see', and 
>>also 'hanging on the old barbed wire . . '
>>
>>To my mind the most powerful of the songs from WW1
>>

>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
>I am Abby Sale - abbysale@orlinter.com  (That's in Orlando)



From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:28:57
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From: abbysale@orlinter.com (Abby Sale)
Newsgroups: uk.music.folk,rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "I know where they are"
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 10:48:14 GMT
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On Tue, 06 May 97 17:33:26 , Eric Berge <edberge@nospam.here>wrote:

>showing them swilling rum in a dugout.  The illustrations are very
>amusing - if anyone wants, I can scan and post them as binaries,
>or email them privately.

Yes.  Me! Me!

>       WHAT DO THE COLONELS AND THE GENERALS DO

That's great. I'll have to get the book.

>       Said I ought to lay the Kaiser's hips to rest,
>        Dirty little job for Jesus, 

>I am guessing that "hips" in the third line is a stand in for something >else, much as "thigh" is in various biblical verses.

Maybe.  And, although I'm generally prone to accept the bawdy
interpretation, maybe just means "kill." Ie, put him on the ground.

On Wed, 07 May 1997 09:24:57 GMT, George.Hawes@i-cubed.co.uk (George
Hawes) wrote:

>>>  It seems to
>>>me that that excellent verse in an earlier post, about the Privates dying
>>>on the barbed wire, is a product of the folksong revival of the '50's and
>>>'60's.
>
>What on earth made him think that I don't know . . 
>
I think there may be a clear difference between American & British
versions.  In the US it seems to be _printed_ as privates in the mud.
But I recall hearing it in the 60's as on the barbed wire.  I've never
heard or seen a "regiment" verse until now.
>
>And Roy Palmer's investigations suggest that early in the war
>the song existed without the last verse, which was added after
>the Somme.

That's an interesting part of it.  Hmmm.   I think you've got it, George.
- 
Getting close, I think.  In any event, with the above information, the
Board of Directors at <Happy>Central have already authorized me to
reveal that they've ruled to agree with J.J.Farrell on the song.  That
is, it fully represents the Battle of the Somme, whether or not it turns
out to be provably specifically written (or updated) about it.

This is very quick work for them.  
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - abbysale@orlinter.com  (That's in Orlando)

From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:29:00
Newsgroups: uk.music.folk,rec.music.folk
Date: Tue, 06 May 97 17:33:26 
From: Eric Berge <edberge@nospam.here>Subject: Re: "I know where they are" 
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In Article<337025c0.21403456@snews2.pdfpo.com>, <abbysale@orlinter.com>writes:

> Lomax, in _Amer Bal & F S_ has an inverted one:
> He got it from _Songs My Mother Never Taught Me_, 1929
> 
>       "If You Want to Know Where the Privates Are"
> 
>       If you want to know where the privates are
>       Up to their ears in mud and slime.
>       
>       ...the sergeants
>       ...the captains
>       .the officers
>       ...the generals

I actually have a copy of _Songs MMNTM_ (JJNIles and Douglas Moore,
Illustrated by A.A.Walgren, 1929);  Lomax must have gotten his 
version from more sources than this (...Runs over to bookcase and 
hauls out Lomax... Nope, he doesn't say).  SMMNTM only has verses
for Privates/Generals/Captains/Sergeants, in that order, although
the words correspond exactly to those Abby listed.

Oddly enough, the accompanying Walgren illustrations for the song
are for the privates and the missing verse about officers, the latter
showing them swilling rum in a dugout.  The illustrations are very
amusing - if anyone wants, I can scan and post them as binaries,
or email them privately.

The note for the song reads as follows (partially duplicated in Lomax):

"There is a lot more truth in this song than one is likely to suspect,
official reports of Army Operations to the contrary notwithstanding.
The version we have here was passed on to us by Orian Hoskinson, originally
of the Field Service and later, Lieut. Hoskinson, A.S.U.S.A., arriving,
however, by the Aviation Cadet route."

The last song in the book is also a good one, and might be a relative of
"If you want to know...", so I'll post it:

        WHAT DO THE COLONELS AND THE GENERALS DO
        (A song that explains itself - and how!)

        Colonel said that Kaiser William surely was a pest,
         Dirty little job for Jesus.
        Said I ought to lay the Kaiser's hips to rest,
         Dirty little job for Jesus, 

        Oh, what do the Generals and the Colonels do...
         I'll tell you, I'll tell you
        Figger out just how the privates ought to do
         The dirty little jobs for Jesus.

        Now when I run away they said I was afraid to die,
         Doin' dirty little jobs for Jesus.
        I said the only reason why I run was 'cause I couldn't fly,
         Doin' dirty little jobs for Jesus.

        Oh, what etc...

        Fifty thousand privates died for democracy,
         Dirty little job for Jesus.
        Twenty major generals got the D.S.C.,
         Another dirtly little job for Jesus.

        Oh, what etc...

Eric Berge
edberge@ibm.net



From Unknown Fri 09 May 97 06:29:03
Newsgroups: uk.music.folk,rec.music.folk
Date: Tue, 06 May 97 19:38:19 
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PS to my last post...

In Article<NEWTNews.862965269.8480.Eric_Berge@tirnanog>, <edberge@nospam.here>writes:

>       WHAT DO THE COLONELS AND THE GENERALS DO
>       (A song that explains itself - and how!)
> 
>       Colonel said that Kaiser William surely was a pest,
>        Dirty little job for Jesus.
>       Said I ought to lay the Kaiser's hips to rest,
>        Dirty little job for Jesus, 

I am guessing that "hips" in the third line is a stand in for something else,
much as "thigh" is in various biblical verses.

Eric Berge
edberge@ibm.net